Curse

spirit of defeat · Feb 26, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

We got buffed.
The most outstanding one's are soul twisting and ritual lord. So which is better

soul twisting
Concise: (5...37 seconds.) Your Binding Rituals cost 15 less Energy (minimum 10) and recharge instantly. Ends after 1...3 Binding Rituals.
Pro's

instant recharge
makes expensive spirit's cheap
there are enough rit energy gain skills
ideal for the 3 defensive comm spirit's

Con

spirit's only
3 spirit's only
hard to keep up depending on your build

Ritual lord
Concise: (5...29 seconds.) You have +2...4 to all Ritualist attributes for your next skill. If that skill is a Binding Ritual, it recharges 10...51% faster and Ritual Lord recharges instantly.
pro

+4 on rit skills
faster spirit recharge
costs no energy to activate

con

1 skill only
needs to be activates between spirit's(although it has not activation time)

And it's not new but it's also about spirit recharge
Reclaim Essence
Concise: All of your Spirits die. If a Spirit dies in this way, you gain 5...17 Energy and all of your Binding Rituals are recharged.
pro

energy gain
instant recharge of all spirits

con

30 sec cooldown
kill's your spirit's

------------------------------------------------

In most cases ritual lord is probably better, it can be used to boost anything. including spirit support skills(boon of creation) the recharge is nice but not necessary.
That's why I think Soul twisting isn't as good, recharge isn't a real big issue with attacking spirit's. But with defensive spirit's it's definitely necessary, and the extra energy to keep them is also good. your defensive should last 15 sec with AoU
The extra energy isn't that important for attack spirit's which cost less. and there are allot energy gain skill's now.

Recaim essence isn't that bad, it's just not good enough, if the recharge was 15 sec i would look into it.

The real question is, is it worth replacing SOS or Sogm?
I know few use Sogm but I think it's great.

So what do you think about these, and which are you going to use?

TheodenKing · Feb 26, 2010, 08:52 PM // 20:52

I am liking Rit Lord for channeling spirits, and Soul Twisting for protective Communing and Restoration spirits.

EDIT: If you don't want to give up SoS, you can use Arcane Mimicry to take Rit Lord, then use it on your SoS.

Zodiac Meteor · Feb 26, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Ritual Lord hands down, it's even better when shelter is level 18 rather than 16. On top of defensive spirits it increases offensive spirits damage. A perfect bridge for Communing defense and offense.

For my heroes, Soul Twisting, the energy that they can manage it their blessing. Xandra has never been happier with her build.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 26, 2010, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Does the +attribute addition on Ritual Lord effect the Spawning Power modifier if you cast, say, Union? If so, Ritual Lord for defensive spirits hands down. The +Skills make them last much longer.

Soul Twisting also looks very viable at the same time. Instant recharge is hard to content with. At first glance, the only tough part would be letting your defensive spirits last long enough for ST to recharge.

Zodiac Meteor · Feb 26, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Does the +attribute addition on Ritual Lord effect the Spawning Power modifier if you cast, say, Union? If so, Ritual Lord for defensive spirits hands down. The +Skills make them last much longer.

Exactly, it's a good mix of Communing Defensive Spirits and Offensive. Maybe have a Resto Spirits for +4 Health Regen from... a word I can't spell.

Quote:

Soul Twisting also looks very viable at the same time. Instant recharge is hard to content with. At first glance, the only tough part would be letting your defensive spirits last long enough for ST to recharge.

Exactly, heroes are so smart when counting when spirits are dead. I notice that they insta-cast as soon as Shelter dies, if a good fight Xandra can keep Shelter up constantly.

Lhim · Feb 26, 2010, 09:39 PM // 21:39

If you take Union at 16 communing and 12 spawning power with Soul Twisting, you get a lvl 13 spirit with 385 hp.

Same for Ritual Lord: communing gets boosted to 20 and spawning power to 16. You then get a lvl 16 spirit with 525 hp. If somehow Ritual Lord wouldn't affect sp, it would be 474 hp. Though the skill description says that all rit attributes are raised by 4 (@ 12 sp), so that would mean sp as well.

MasterSasori · Feb 26, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

I think the biggest advantage ST has over Rit Lord is the energy to upkeep Shelter. When there is alot of damage going to your team, Shelter dies quickly and putting up another is very energy intensive. Soul Twisting makes it so energy is much less of an issue.

The reason I like ST more is because its better on a hero. Although a human can ST as well as a hero, Humans are far better using SoS or SoGM compared to heroes and that matters much. Since you can't have multiple copies of spirits, why waste human talent on a build that a mindless AI can run? It's about efficiency and placement and not about the skill itself.

I don't think either can replace SoS on a human. SoS is a league on its own and very few classes can match it DPS output, versatility, and ease of use. Humans also can place their spirits somewhere safe instead of behind a rock or in the middle of Savannah Heat.

spirit of defeat · Feb 26, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I did the math between these 2 build:

both with SP @14 and Comm @16 sunspear @ 12

combined with Painfull Bond @16 on Xandra
And the difference is around 100 damge per 2 sec (spirit's attack every 2 sec).
Signet of Gosthly Might is far better for offensive communing.
The recharge is quite unimportant if you think about that....

Quote:

EDIT: If you don't want to give up SoS, you can use Arcane Mimicry to take Rit Lord, then use it on your SoS.

SOS is far more effective on Xandra which doesn't have Summon Spirit's.
I need my second Rit to be mobile.

I don't care about SOS much, but pugs do.

I've also looked into a ritual lord+A Miminc combo of anykind and I just can't find one that suits me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The reason I like ST more is because its better on a hero. Although a human can ST as well as a hero, Humans are far better using SoS or SoGM compared to heroes and that matters much. Since you can't have multiple copies of spirits, why waste human talent on a build that a mindless AI can run? It's about efficiency and placement and not about the skill itself.

I don't think either can replace SoS on a human. SoS is a league on its own and very few classes can match it DPS output, versatility, and ease of use. Humans also can place their spirits somewhere safe instead of behind a rock or in the middle of Savannah Heat.

I haven't tested ST on a hero yet, but I don't have problem's with xandra using SOS+bloodsong+painfullbond.
You want to let a hero run something like I showed higher in this post?
I think it takes to long to set up 3-5 lose spirit's without summon spirit's.

@general discussion
as I said in my first post recharge is quite irrelevant unless it's defense spirit's.

soul Twist is instant recharge every 15 sec, which means one shelter every 15 sec.
+cheaper

Ritual lord means 50% @12 so one shelter every 22.5 sec.
+ 4 communing = about -6hp loss

I think ST is better for defense.
And SOGM is better for communing offense
And SOS is better for chan offense
Ritual is better for hybrid's?

instanceskiller · Feb 26, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

For me, I prefer Ritual Lord though it really is a close call between it and soul twisting. The only difference between the two really is that rit lord adds a +1 to 4 whereas soul twisting gives lower energy cost. Both give significant recharge reductions that it makes them both just as viable in that respect as although soul twisting gives instant recharge, rt lord gives enough of a reduction to recharge that Spirits can be recast whilst the other is still alive.
For heroes though, it would definitely be soul twisting. Though this brings me to my next point/question...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Ritual Lord hands down, it's even better when shelter is level 18 rather than 16. On top of defensive spirits it increases offensive spirits damage. A perfect bridge for Communing defense and offense.

For my heroes, Soul Twisting, the energy that they can manage it their blessing. Xandra has never been happier with her build.

Sorry for asking zodiac but your xandra seems to be enjoying her soul twisting. Does she not have a tendency to cast all her spirits first before casting it?

Damian Manson · Feb 26, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by instanceskiller

Sorry for asking zodiac but your xandra seems to be enjoying her soul twisting. Does she not have a tendency to cast all her spirits first before casting it?

i will have to agree with this on testing rit heroes are not using ST very well unless your microing it, so far i have found ST for Prot spirits from the communing line and ritual lord for hybrids works best for me atm

Dusk_ · Feb 26, 2010, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by instanceskiller

Sorry for asking zodiac but your xandra seems to be enjoying her soul twisting. Does she not have a tendency to cast all her spirits first before casting it?

Soul Twisting is a skill with no cast time. Heroes have no problem prioritizing skills when...well, there is no need to prioritize.

Karate Jesus · Feb 26, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Soul Twisting on Heroes

Rit Lord on Players

Reclaim Essence in the corner thinking about what it did wrong.

Chthon · Feb 27, 2010, 12:12 AM // 00:12

On RitLord vs. SoulTwisting for maintaining Shelter:

Assume 16 Communing & 13 Spawning & Armor of Unfeeling & Boon of Creation.

Shelter under Ritlord: 20e cost, 1sec cast, spirit is lvl 16, with 622hp, takes 18dmg per trigger, and recharges in 21.15sec. (fractional recharge is possible, right?)
So, spirit dies on the 35th trigger, cost per trigger is ~0.57e/trigger, and maximum rate of incoming large hits you can maintain under is ~1.58triggers/sec.

Shelter under Soul Twisting: 6.66...e cost, 1sec cast, spirit is lvl 13, with 471hp, takes 22dmg per trigger, and recharges (effectively) in 15sec.
So, spirit dies on the 22nd trigger, cost per trigger is 0.3030...e/trigger, and maximum rate of incoming triggers you can maintain under is ~1.375triggers/sec.

So...
The conclusions that I'd draw are these:
1. RitLord's Shelter stays maintainable under a (~15%) heavier damage load than Soul Twisting's Shelter, and will always have a better uptime ratio under loads neither can maintain.
2. Soul Twisting's Shelter costs nearly half as much.
3. If you can afford the energy load under Ritlord, use it; otherwise use Soul Twisting.

Next steps in the analysis would be to see if you really need more than 22 triggers in 15 sec. (if not, Rit Lord loses its advantage) and to calculate the bearable damage loads under a realistic energy constraint.

vamp08 · Feb 27, 2010, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Is soul twisting broken now? My 15e bindings are still costing energy.

And what does "minimum 10" mean?

Damian Manson · Feb 27, 2010, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Is soul twisting broken now? My 15e bindings are still costing energy.

And what does "minimum 10" mean?

it means that the binding rituals energy cost cannot be lowered below 10 so a 25e ritual under st will be 10 energy and a 15e ritual will cost 10e under st :P on that account and obviously 5 energy rituals will still cost 5 hope this helps

Lanier · Feb 27, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

What I like so much about this update is that these spirit spamming elites were, for the most part, all balanced evenly. They all now have their unique area, where they excell. I do expect, however, that SoS is still a little overpowered and may need a very minor tone down again, but i guess we'll see how it turns out.

Anyway, I use:

SoS for channeling/communing offensive spirit hybrids
SoGM for communing offensive spirit builds that do not utilize the high recharging spirits (dissonance), but that rather use vampirism
Ritlord for communing offensive spirit builds that do use dissonance, so i can maintain that powerful spirit (i love random interupts + the increased damage compared to vampirism)
Soul Twisting for defensive spirit communing builds (shelter, union, and displacement are pretty easily maintainable)

And of course, Wanderlust is always a fun spirit to use as well. KD's are pretty leet.

Sadly, Reclaim essence is now left out due to the buffs to soul twisting and ritlord.

Zaith · Feb 27, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Just tried out the new skill with a couple of missions, and with enough energy management, namely Boon of Creation and the newly buffed Signet of Creation, I was able to keep up Shelter, Union, Displacement and Recuperation almost constantly - sweet deal! This would be around 14 for each attribute. I'll probably switch out recuperation for something cheaper and more dramatic like life or rejuvenation, because the other three die quickly with larger mobs (leaving SoC useless) and draining you quickly.

Also, I noticed it might be possible to get above 20 in Spawning Power with only this skill and a superior rune and headpiece if you get a half recharge. I know with consumables and blessings it's capped at 20 (with the exception of % chances for +1 from weapons), but has anyone looked into it?

vamp08 · Feb 27, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Manson

it means that the binding rituals energy cost cannot be lowered below 10 so a 25e ritual under st will be 10 energy and a 15e ritual will cost 10e under st :P on that account and obviously 5 energy rituals will still cost 5 hope this helps

I see, but that skill discription needs to be reworded. Unless i'm just the only idiot in GW who got really confused on it.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 27, 2010, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

I see, but that skill discription needs to be reworded. Unless i'm just the only idiot in GW who got really confused on it.

It works functionally the same as Energizing Wind without the recharge addition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaith

Just tried out the new skill with a couple of missions, and with enough energy management, namely Boon of Creation and the newly buffed Signet of Creation, I was able to keep up Shelter, Union, Displacement and Recuperation almost constantly - sweet deal! This would be around 14 for each attribute. I'll probably switch out recuperation for something cheaper and more dramatic like life or rejuvenation, because the other three die quickly with larger mobs (leaving SoC useless) and draining you quickly.

using which, Rit Lord or Soul Twisting?

spirit of defeat · Feb 27, 2010, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

using which, Rit Lord or Soul Twisting?

he used Ritual lord it's in the title.